Trying to learn about water parameters

[xSteve]

I have a pr of Bristlenoses a brown male and an albino female, also 6 L144 Lemons 2 male and 4 female. Both have spawned and was looking at expanding into some other plecs.
Reading on here and other forums there is a vast difference in water parameters depending on where in the world you are. I am in Midlands, Birmingham.
Looking to see if my water is good enough to use to expand my little empire or does it need a little tampering. I tried first the Ph, but found that this has little to do with the quality because of water board additives. To that end I have ordered a TDS meter, still waiting for arrival, and a hardness kit.
That has arrived to day so I have tested water from the tap.
API test adding a drop at a time to turn water either green, GH or bright yellow, KH.
How I read it the Kh was 53.7 and the GH 53.7-71.6 (not sure how green the liquid needs to be)

Are these readings good / bad or indifferent ? Do I need to try tap water after 24 hrs of standing ?

I'll add TDS readings once I receive my meter, so hopefully begin my learning curve about water

Many thx for any insight

Steve

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
You could potentially have very soft water living in Birmingham, UK, if the water comes from the Elan Dams in mid Wales.

As you say pH isn't a very useful parameter, because the water company will add sodium hydroxide (NaOH) to raise the pH above pH7. The aim of this is to stop lead (Pb) and copper (Cu) going into solution from metal pipes. The NaOH raises pH but it doesn't add any carbonate buffering (dKH) or general hardness (Ca++ or Mg++ ions) ~dGH.

I'm not a great lover of kits, but your TDS meter should give you a better idea of the salts content of your water, and from there you can get a bit more idea of what your water is like.

You should be able to get water quality parameters from your water company, presumably "Severn-Trent".

In the mean time assumming that you do have Elan Valley water have a look at these threads <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=118397&highlight=darrel+stuart+oyster#post118397> & <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9323>

cheers Darrel

 

[xSteve]

Thx Darrel, yup Severn Trent it is

I got me TDS meter today and tried it out. Here goes

Straight Tap water was 67
Over night with airstone Tap water was 73

Both in a 2ltr jug if that makes a difference.

I have atm 2 tanks both 18*12*12 (A+B)
A) has a brown male Bristlenose app 3.5" and a female Albino Bristlenose app 5" couple small pieces of bogwood, couple terracotta plant pots as 'caves' that Tds is 245

B) has a Gp of 6 small L144 Lemons at app 2.5" - 3"ea. 2 Male 4 Female 4 terracotta plec 'caves' and a large piece of bogwood app 12" long that Tds is 184

Both tanks are bare bottom and have 450lh allpond internal filters, rated for 90 ltrs twice the 40+ litres of these tanks as well as a dual and single sponge filter

Steve

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Straight Tap water was 67

OK so it is soft good quality water from mid Wales. where NaOH has been added to raise the pH.

Over night with airstone Tap water was 73

It isn't the air-stone that has made the difference, it is just the water has warmed up, and warmer water has a lower resistance and conducts electricity slightly better. TDS meters are all really conductivity meters, that use a conversion factor (somewhere between 0.5 and 0.64) to convert conductivity in microS to TDS in ppm.

Your water is like the water in the "Oyster shell grit" thread and links <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9323>.

cheers Darrel

 

[xSteve]

Hi, So I can follow the does and don't on those threads. I'll keep on reading through em till it starts to sink in
Can you tell me why both tanks are a lot higher than the tap waters 67-73 @ 245 & 184.? Is it the bogwood?

Steve

 

[bigbird]

straight tap water is clean so to speak. Once tap water is in the tank, bogwood, stones, substrate, plants etc all add to the mix and change of water chemistry and quality. The thing is to get that in order in order for the Ls to be happy. Routine is always the best issue for all tanks and testing of water as well. Do not overfeed and remember do the water changes regulary. cheers jk :thumbup:

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'll keep on reading through em till it starts to sink in
Can you tell me why both tanks are a lot higher than the tap waters 67-73 @ 245 & 184.? Is it the bogwood?

Like "bigbird" says TDS (conductivity really) is a measure of all the salts in solution, plants should really lower TDS (they'll remove ions like NO3-, K+ etc and incorporate them into the growing plant), and rocks or sand will only raise TDS if they are limestone (Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions will dissolve), but fish food, any plant fertilisers etc will all raise TDS. Bog wood will tend to add humic substances (the brown tint) and there will contribute a little to TDS.

If you want to lower TDS, just change more water.

cheers Darrel

 

[xSteve]

With 'soft' tap water I could manage to keep L183 Starlight's. Reading on these they don't tolerate hard water. What range would I need to keep the TDS. Is the 180 - 240 I have in both tanks ok or is that too high ?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Is the 180 - 240 I have in both tanks ok or is that too high ?

It is probably a bit high, you should be able to lower it to 100ppm TDS, you could just change a bit more water (if you are using 100% tap?) to lower the TDS.

Our rain-water is about the same TDS as your tap, and I find the tanks (all planted and with a sand substrate) stay at about 60 - 100 ppm TDS with a 10% water change every day.

cheers Darrel

 

[xSteve]

State of play so far. The tanks connected to the sump equate to about 54gal. With water changes I am keeping the TDS below 150. I have used Oak leaves to lower the PH, that has fallen to about 6.4 now.
Will this keep falling ? if so how can I stabilize it at app 6.4.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

With water changes I am keeping the TDS below 150. I have used Oak leaves to lower the PH, that has fallen to about 6.4 now.

Sounds really promising. Have a look a this article by Colin Dunlop <http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/>.

Will this keep falling ? if so how can I stabilize it at app 6.4.

You can't really stabilize the pH, but don't worry in soft, low TDS water pH isn't a very useful measurement, and it can potentially swing about through a wide range of values, for example as the O2/CO2 balance changes. Soft-water fish are used to changes in pH, mainly because they don't involve large changes in water chemistry, this is the exact opposite of the situation in heavily carbonate buffered water like Lake Tanganyika, where small changes in pH mean large changes in water chemistry.

Because pH is a ratio (H+:O-H ions), it doesn't tell you anything about amounts. In low TDS water you have small amounts of acids and bases, this means that the addition of a small amount of acids (like the humic and tannic acids from the Oak leaves) will lower pH, because you don't have many bases to neutralise the acids.

If you add a small amount of "oyster shell chick grit" or similar, you will always have a reserve of bases and dKH (HCO3-) from the dissolution of the CaCO3 based shells, if you keep the TDS at about 100 -150ppm (via water changes) things should be fine.

Oyster shell chick grit is cheap from agricultural suppliers, Ebay, caged bird supplies, pet super-stores etc. 1kg should cost £5, and that should last you for years.

cheers Darrel

 

[xSteve]

Thx for that Darrel.

The idea for Oak leaves was from that article, post on another thread, liked all the different positives from it. Added to the ease of acquiring them.
I'll get a little grit to then to try n stop too big a swing in say water changes.

Was just a little worried as I lost a Lemon yesterday, all the water params appeared to excellent. This left me thinking the PH may be dropping too low so wanted to check. Noticed the males chasing all the females around, so perhaps she was hassled to death ? There were no visual signs, bite marks, bloated or sunken tummy etc

regards Steve

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'll get a little grit

If you can't get 100% Oyster shell grit, you can use flint/oyster shell mixed, although you get less Oyster shell for your money. Cockle shell grit is as good as Oyster shell, it just needs to be shell grit.

Was just a little worried as I lost a Lemon yesterday, all the water params appeared to excellent. This left me thinking the PH may be dropping too low so wanted to check. Noticed the males chasing all the females around, so perhaps she was hassled to death ? There were no visual signs, bite marks, bloated or sunken tummy etc

Sorry to hear that, the fact that the other fish are active suggests that it probably isn't a water issue, but biological filtration is compromised to some degree at lower pH levels, so it would be worth making sure you have plenty of oxygenation. More explanation here: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>

Also have a look a this thread: (apologies for the cross-post to PC).
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39620.

cheers Darrel