Camelanus worms: oral treatment

[canberra_plec]

Hi everyone, just a follow up on my experiments.

for those who missed my previous threads i somehow contracted camelanus worms in my tanks after a move and the little buggers were resistant to most treatments that i used on the including the levimisole bath and praziquatril baths.

after getting pretty desperate i decided to try and get them to ingest a cocktail of meds to knock the little buggers where they live and it worked!!!


so heres what i did.

things you will need,

4 x praziquantril tablets

3 x flagyl tabs

2 x drontal chewable all wormers for dogs over 10kg

1 x antibiotic tab, i used augmentin

100g of their normal food

1/2 multi vitamin tab

about 10-15 medical spirlina tabs(obtained from health food store)

gelatine.

NOTE: IF FEEDING USUALLY CONSISTS OF VEGGIES OR WAFERS(PLECO LOVERS) REPLACE THE FAV FOOD PART WITH 50G OF QUALITY CRUMBLE AND 50G EXTRA SPIRLINA TABS FROM HEATH FOOD STORE



ok first i crushed the tablets, including spirlina, up in a mortar a pestle, make sure it is sooo fine other wise the fish will pick it out.

then pulverise your food, if it is flake a "magic bullet" works very well, pellet or crumble a mortar a pestle worked best for me. what ever you can find so long as again it is really fine powder when your done.


then mix it up dry and crush with your hands one and a half of the drontal wormers.(hold onto the other half)




mix up the gelatine really thick, i used 3 heaped tsp gelatine to 7-8 tsp water and i found it was easier to just nuke it.

let the gelatine cool a bit so you dont spoil the meds and when it is luke warms mix in some of your powder. you may have to make a bit more of the gelatine so long as you end up with a smooth paste(slightly runnier if you are feeding fish other than pleco's)


then quickly before it cools too much spread it onto some grease proof paper then put another piece on top and roll as thin as you can with a pin or bottle or something.(pleco mix roll slightly thicker)

let it sit as is for 5 mins then remove top layer. then another 5 mins and peel your flake off and let sit on drying rack of some sort.


after the stuff has fully dried, usually 24-48 hours simply crumble up to size of your fish's mouth.(for pleco mix break into little slabs as if it were thin wafers)



feeding:


ok once all that is done its time to feed, now i actually "fasted" my fish so as to make them a little more hungry

to "mega-dose" your fish feed them crushed up the remaining drontal, they should eat it straight if there hungry, then feed them your flake

feed generously but not wastefully 2-3 times a day for 2-3 weeks. if you run out of food you will have to make more. it is VITAL that you keep feeding the fish for at LEAST 2 weeks because this is an oral treatment. for starters the worm can live as eggs throughout your tank for that long and also can re-infest from inside the gut itself. the 3 week treatment makes sure you get the buggers at all stages.


being a dry oral food i now intend to use it maybe slightly modified to feed all new additions

it is also worth noting that you should treat all equipment including nets and old silk plants if you have had an infestation. the eggs can attach and live out of water.

this can be done by getting a 10l bucket of water, adding 2 praziquantril tabs, half a cap of bleech and 1/4 cup of salt and just soak them in it




hope this helps someone out there

 

[Doodles]

Cheers for that, very detailed:yes:

 

[canberra_plec]

your welcome

 

[bre]

If you reckon it works then good on you......

I've got a few probs with your methods though.

Firstly placing medication in food is not always going work on sick fish.....fish infected with these worms do not always eat. Therefor you can not rely wholey on this treatment. Placing it directly into the water works better and makes sure that every fish in the tank IS treated.


Secondly, You say a 2-3 week treatment will kill all stages of this when only treating orally. The life cycle of these worms is approx 28 days. That's 4 weeks. A 2-3 week treatment will definately not guarantee to rid the tank of these. And please explain to me how this will also kill all the buggers that have made their way through the gravel etc? That is another reason that treating the water is the best option here.

That is also an expensive way. Out of curiousity how much did all that set you back financially?
A treatment of Avitrol Plus in tablet form will set you back $14 for a box of 100. That's enough to treat 1000L.

 

[canberra_plec]

ok good point and avitrol plus will work most of the time but as stated this is for dealing specifically with resistant strains.

and yes thanks for pointing that out, if your fish is too far along alas it wont eat the treatment so a quarantine tank made up with a medical bath is your only option really..


the key ingredient in avitrol plus is levemisol. levamisol for starters paralises the paracite rather than kills it and if you have say 1 single tank thats fine. you have to vaccume the worms out as they fall or risk another fish simply eating it again. its simply not practical(with the amount of tanks and racks some of us keep). and also i tried it on several of my isolated tanks and the worms showed no adverse affects.


as for the cost for the level of treatment it actually works out cheaper because rather than having to create a medictaion bath and have the fish absorb it through the skin it is directly administered to the fish and also a safer levels.


this treatment is designed to actually kill the worms at any living stage and therefore continuing the treatment only ensures you get any eggs that hatch after initial treatment and they have no chance to grow big enough to create more. the egg cycle from what i have been told is "roughly" 14 days. none of the worms actually have a chance to grow through their full life cycle.


hope this clears things up a bit.


ps. this treatment was created with the help of several aquatic experts, vets and compounding chemists so the ideas and theory's are theirs more so than mine. all i know is it is the ony thing that has worked

 

[canberra_plec]

oh and btw cost wise the flagyl was $10 for 5, prazi i keep any ways its about $25 for 100, food already had, drontal was i think $14 and the rest is stuff you shouls have hanging around.

btw the vitamins and the anti-biotics are non-essential. they are simply there to assist with the healing of internal and secondary dammage done by the worms.

 

[Breamlegend]

Interesting read.
Avitrol plus also has praziquantel. Without it it would not be as effective. Much easier to use avitrol. I've used it with great succes and it is cheap. If you treated first with avitrol how do you know it wasnt effective or that is what cured the fish?
I'm not trying to bag you but I am concerned that others may avoid using avitrol and suffer losses- when it does work. I know of a few people who have used it sucessfully and it is harmless to your fish.

 

[canberra_plec]

ye i used it in several tanks first and unfortunately not a single one fell out. like i said and i hope no one gets the wrong idea, this is an alternative treatment if you have a resistant strain.

i have used avitrol before and it has worked in individual tanks. the main guns in the treatment i have described is actually the flagyl and forgive the spelling but something like metrabenzol i think? its one of the ingredients in the drontal.

its actually alot safer IF you follow the quantity's provided because all of the drugs used, and again this is just what the people i consulted with have concluded, if used in the quantity's we have come up with is actually easier on the animals livers and kidney's because its going straight through the gut and not being absorbed to a higher level through the skin and blood.


feel free to add possible advice guys. i used it successfully but only on version 1 if you will


but yeah for everyone considering their options a levimisole bath is definately your first stop. and as stated by everyone avitrol plus is a nice cheap and clean method to obtain it:woohoo:

 

[bre]

Can you just clarify for me what treatments, doses etc you have used. Not including your own mixture.

levamisole bath
prazi bath
is there anything else?? what doses for the levamisole and prazi baths?

 

[Doodles]

i have used avitrol before and it has worked in individual tanks. the main guns in the treatment i have described is actually the flagyl and forgive the spelling but something like metrabenzol i think? its one of the ingredients in the drontal.

Flagyl is metronidazole, usually used for HITH and recently has been found to help deal with fish that have stopped eating due to irritation caused by some internal parasites if i remember rightly.


Its good you posted up what you have and if anyone seems concerned, its really because they wouldn't want anyone to try this and lose fish, im sure you can understand that. I think the main concern is to do with the time spans, from initial treatments up until you tried the 'silver bullet', and that the fish didn't have time to clear previous meds from their system before more being added which could explain the loss of fish you experienced.

Please don't be offended by questions or concerns voiced as we all have the same aim, to keep fish in the best health possible, and this would also include any damage etc caused by medications.

 

[canberra_plec]

ye no happy to answer questions ok maybe i was remembering the medical name of flagyl lol. ill look into what the one in the drontal was, i was just remembering off the top of my head:blink:

i will have to get back to you on the doses i used, but i waiteda week and a half after the prazi bath and then 2 weeks after the avitrol bath.
i also tried a liquid drop form of the levamisole.

Pyrantel, that is the key ingredient from the drontal. sorry about the mix up guys.

and ye like i said the most dangerous part of the mix is actually the anti-biotics to put it into perspective for you

 

[bre]

It's just hard to get a full understanding of what has been happening. You have threads on PF (yes i've read through them) and I just can't quite get my head around your treatments.

Call me bonkers, whatever....I don't care, but can you explain to me this

On the 23rd sept you posted a thread asking for meds to help with worming fish. Explained your situation. You were then told what the issue was with your fish and to treat with avitrol.
then also on the 23rd you posted another thread asking for levamisole to treat your fish.

then on the 27th you post that you have this magic bullet in another thread.

To me that is only 4 days from diagnosis to your magic bullet. Now that's 4 days to do all those treatments as well as others that you have mentioned on pf.

That is why I asked for doses, what meds, time period. Because your posts do not appear to add up with what you are saying.

first tried the standard worming food.. nothing, then dossed the water with praziquantil.. nothing. tried the levramisole treatment and appart from loosing a few fish... nothing. also tried a few water treatments suggested by the vet... nothing.

Correct me please if I'm wrong.

 

[canberra_plec]

no i already treated with prazi, as i always have some on hand. and as soon as i saw them i treated with it to no avail. so i thought maybe i had mis diagnosed and asked around. the only other post i put up was explaining i was working on it...

appart from the fact that i only treated a few isolated tanks with the baths and have used only the oral treatment in all my sumped racks and the rest of the tanks. so even if there was some sort of overlap as far as im aware chemicals cant cross over from one tank to another.

if you doubt me and what i have used feel free to try it before you just dig deep to try find ways to put me down guys. im just trying to help with what i have learned. i gotta learn not to share i think by the looks of things

 

[canberra_plec]

oh and the post wa trying to track down the pure levamisole rather than the avitrol tabs because i thought that maybe the fact that i had already treated with prazi there might be some interference.

i found it in the form of avarian drops btw designed to be dropped into the birds mouth directly i believe

 

[bre]

I'm not trying to put you down. I'm trying to get answers to things I don't feel add up. As i have stated aswell please correct me if i am wrong.
It's great that you want to try and share what you have learnt. However without adding all facts it is hard to get a full understanding. All of your threads asking for advice were on PF. It makes it hard to get that good understanding of what you have been through and what advice you have been given. As well as what treatments you have already used.

I asked for meds used to clarify what you had previously treated with, if in correct doses and time periods between dosing. They are standard questions asked if someone has used multiple treatments in a period of time. You never previously stated that you had tried different treatments in different tanks so to me they are questions that i would expect to be asked.

You have said on here that you have treated with prazi, avitrol and levamisole as well as your mix, on PF you said that you have treated with standard worming food, prazi, levamisole and a few suggestions from the vets.

 

[canberra_plec]

ok the prazi is 100mg tablets at a dose of 1 per 20l, the worming food is a white crane product. the dosage for the levamisole were on p/f but i cant get on atm unfortunately

the prazi has a 1 week time period to work and i actually re-dosed after 4 days and a week and a half later when it hadnt worked i logged on to see if i had mis diagnosed.

when a few people confirmed it had to be camelanus i tracked down the drops. the avitrol i didnt use this time, i have in the past, because i already double dossed the water with prazi and didnt wanna load them with any more (plus the white crane i think contains prazi too...)

 

[Breamlegend]

The reason avitrol works is because of the combination of the two components, either on their own doesnt work well. The drops are meant to be put in the water. I prefer the tablets ground up and mixed with tank water.