getting the right mix-h2o chemisty help :)

ccole · May 20, 2012

hello again everyone- think i must have posted dozens of times by now!

I have been taking time ..lots of time..finally, to read and understand , i mean attempt to under stand the crazy water chemistry.

Knowing that i had/have super high KH in my tap and tank water, i ignorantly or not have been adding cappa leaves and large amounts of wood to my tank.

I resently took readings of my tank after doing all this and waiting for 100% water change after several water changes my new KH is now 107.4ppm , measure by an API liquid measuring kit.

My tap and tank water GH is 214.8ppm.

Ok now this is where i am getting confused and could do with some help. I will give you the readings for my tank,tap and rain water in the hope that you can help me determin if it will be benifishal to my fish to mix rain and tap water together (whilst understanding the pro's and con's of using rain water)

My Tank

p.h 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite <5
GH- 214PPM
KH 107PPM

My Tap

p.h 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 38.8mg
Nitrite <5
GH- I measure this as 214ppm but the water board said it is 134.4mg??
Kh- 214

My Rain

P.H 6.6
aMMONIA 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
GH 107ppm
kh 107pm

The pleco's i have are said to live in water between the ranges of 5.8 -7.6
but what i am wondering about is if i mix rain and tap to create a more middle ground gh will it be more accomadating PH wise and increase oxygenation by creating a less extreme TDS ..

I am assuming due to the High GH/KH that TDS was be extreme but this is just a theory as i am in the process of buying a TDS meter.... so these last two paragraphs may be a load of crap until i do get a TDS meter?

hope you can tell me if there would be any advantages of mixing tap with rain.

Thanks
cc

Lornek8 · May 20, 2012

Tds of 200 is not bad for a community tank. In fact when I was keeping crs I tried to simply keep my tds below 200. Mixing rainwater would probably bring your tds down but may or may not have much affect on your ph.

MICKSNOWDOG · May 20, 2012

the gh and kh are quoite high in your rainwater, i would be tending to use as much rainwater as is available. kh at those levels - if wc's done regularly - should be sufficient to prevent ph spikes. kh is eaten away slowly by the aquarium.

Brengun · May 20, 2012

Your rainwater is perfect, just use it. Kh and gh of dh6 (converted from ppm) is loverly. Ph of 6.6 is great. Dont add a thing.

ccole · May 20, 2012

thankls everyone- i was hoping to be able to use rainwater, simple question- to i need to use declorinator? I'm guessing no....

Pity we are having a drought at the moment!

is all me chattings right about the relationship between gh/kg etc?

Lornek8 · May 20, 2012

No need to dechlor, no chlorine in rainwater.
One thing to think about is what is in the air that could end up in the rain. For instance if you are near a major metropolitan or industrial area. As mick said, TSS seems a bit high for rainwater though it could be how it was collected added something to it. Also be aware that if you collect rainwater off the roof that some roof coverings have additives that can be toxic to fish.

jessonthenet · May 20, 2012

I think the water board are measuring in weight mg = milligrams , I think 1 litre of water is equivalent to 1 kg . ppm= parts per million and is a ratio. There is a conversion of ppm to mg somewhere.

gh - general hardness or permanent hardness doesn't affect the ph as far as I know, that is as far as I know of course.

kh - is what controls the ph and can disappear over time and make ph unstable. I am unsure of the values of kh compared to ph.

The water company probably add buffers to the tap water , I am surprised that your tank kh is the same as the rain kh with the ph staying the same in your tank as the tap water but the kh drops?? I do not know that much about gh/kh/ph stuff yet as only just starting to look into it.

Your readings are interesting to look at and look up about. I might have to do some readings of my own.

ccole · May 20, 2012

Lornek8 said:
No need to dechlor, no chlorine in rainwater.
One thing to think about is what is in the air that could end up in the rain. For instance if you are near a major metropolitan or industrial area. As mick said, TSS seems a bit high for rainwater though it could be how it was collected added something to it. Also be aware that if you collect rainwater off the roof that some roof coverings have additives that can be toxic to fish.

Thanks for heads up
I am luckky to live in a small village, in the country side , away fom major roads. I think you may be right about the TSS being high due to the way i collected it- i collected it from my water butt and it hasnt rained in weeks, so been sitting in a dirty butt (no pun) for a while.
I have moved the water butt away from roof as taking advice from yourself and others in other threads, i am using an umbrella type device to create a larger collection area...

one thing i hadnt thought about is the fact the airforce do routene fly over of my house...

something to think about

ccole · May 20, 2012

I think the water board are measuring in weight mg = milligrams , I think 1 litre of water is equivalent to 1 kg . ppm= parts per million and is a ratio. There is a conversion of ppm to mg somewhere

totally right= after looking back and it not being 4am I see the mg sigh!

"gh - general hardness or permanent hardness doesn't affect the ph as far as I know, that is as far as I know of course.
kh - is what controls the ph and can disappear over time and make ph unstable. I am unsure of the values of kh compared to ph"

I had alook at the things i had been reading and you are indeed correct "The higher the KH, the more stable and resistant your water is to pH swings"
So many letters!

Cheers Jess

dw1305 · May 23, 2012

Hi all,
We do have a thread with conversion values in it. <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1017&highlight=corsham&page=3>
It is towards the bottom of the page in "Units for measuring hardness - includes some chemistry":

We've also got some buffering posts <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8904> & <http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8744&page=3>

Your rainwater is perfect, just use it. Kh and gh of dh6 (converted from ppm) is loverly. Ph of 6.6 is great. Dont add a thing.

I agree with Bren, I use rain-water, and have done since the 1970's, in the S & SE of the UK you don't need to add much buffering because the rain-water picks up quite a lot of lime-stone dust from roofs etc.

One proviso is that in arable agricultural areas, you have the risk of pesticide drift in your rain-water, you can either filter through activated charcoal, or use a "Daphnia bio-assay". The bio-assay is a real scientific technique <http://ei.cornell.edu/toxicology/bioassays/daphnia/>, because Daphnia are very sensitive to water conditions, but it just consists of putting a starter culture of Daphnia (either caught in a pond or bought from the LFS) and then checking that the water you draw off for your water changes has Daphnia in it.

Swimming Daphnia = your water is good.

cheers Darrel

ccole · May 23, 2012

thanks Darrel- well grounded advice , yet again.
I have read up on the daphia bioassay and it seems really straight forward and would also provide some food for my plecs (if the water is ok)
I managed to find the posts you linked earlier in my research and thats the only reason i know the little that i do...or think i know

dk::-/)

My plan- for when it starts to rain, i am going to place some wide egg crete, with a think film of filter cotton over the top of my water butt.In order to filter out the debre that blows in with norfolk winds!
Once I have the water I am going to place it in a 200ltr (doubt i'll have to much rain to fit in!) with an air stone. I will place the daphnia in the water and leave for 24hours to get to room temp/ time for the daphnia to sink or swim

Questions:
1. how long can i leave the water in the butt ?
2. Will the air stone help the water stay fresh?
3. Should I place the cappa leaves i use into the butt instead of the tank to make sure I am not lowing the PH to much (I use cappa for colour and anti-sickness/ good vibes it has bistowed)
4. will i make the fish all unhappy by doing my normal 30% change a week, should i spilt this into 2 15% changes until reaching 330ltr's changes?
5.Nope no number five

thanks for everyones help
cc

dw1305 · May 24, 2012

Hi all,
I just put the Daphnia starter in the water butt, I've never needed to re-start the culture as I have several butts, so even if I clean one I can get some water (and Daphnia) to re-seed it.

A lid is quite useful to keep out debris (and the cat), but I like to have a lid with a hole in it to allow mosquitoes access. I also float a wine cork in the butts, as the females mosquito needs a perch. I think the egg crate would work, without the filter floss. You can always filter the water through a sponge if you want to before use.

I don't use an air stone, you don't need it and one problem is that Daphnia and fine bubbles don't get on.

cheers Darrel

ccole · May 26, 2012

dw1305 said:
Hi all,
I just put the Daphnia starter in the water butt, I've never needed to re-start the culture as I have several butts, so even if I clean one I can get some water (and Daphnia) to re-seed it.

Thats great to know- means it's cheaper!

A lid is quite useful to keep out debris (and the cat), but I like to have a lid with a hole in it to allow mosquitoes access. I also float a wine cork in the butts, as the females mosquito needs a perch.

Am i right in thinking the mosquitoes lavar is good food?

I think the egg crate would work, without the filter floss. You can always filter the water through a sponge if you want to before use.

I was thinking of using an old external to pump the water through to tank- just filled with sponge.

I don't use an air stone, you don't need it and one problem is that Daphnia and fine bubbles don't get on.

I am going to pump from outside butt- to inside butt- How long is the water inside good for?

Cheers for the help!

just need to get paid and find the cheapest container that the wife wont have a panic about it possibly leaking!

dw1305 · May 28, 2012

Hi all,

Am i right in thinking the mosquitoes lavar is good food?

Yes, not so good for plecs, because they are too active and surface orientated, but great for conditioning Gouramis, Tetras etc.

I am going to pump from outside butt- to inside butt- How long is the water inside good for?

The water shouldn't ever go "bad", because it is extremely clean to start with. Another advantage of the Daphnia or Mosquito larvae, when you feed them to the fish you export any nutrients that were in the water butt, concentrated inside the live food. You only have a low density of Daphnia, because the water isn't productive enough to support many.

cheers Darrel

ccole · Jun 27, 2012

hi there
Having had a rainy couple of weeks (finally) my rain butt has filled up. I added daphnia as suggested. I went back about 7 days later, having forgot i put them in there and there where none!!!!

Would this be because i left it so long or whould they have reproduced?
cheers

dw1305 · Jun 27, 2012

Hi all,

I added daphnia as suggested. I went back about 7 days later, having forgot i put them in there and there where none!!!! Would this be because i left it so long or whould they have reproduced?

They should still be in there, it would only be if there was something toxic to them in the water. Where they are in the water column depends on the time of day, towards the middle of the day they will be near the bottom.

Just wait, they will breed and numbers will slowly build up.

cheers Darrel

Zebra Pleco · Jun 27, 2012

Very interesting thread. Keep the updates coming in. Curious to see how this will work.

ccole · Jun 27, 2012

hey everyone--- went fishing in my water butt , instead of using the jar i was i used a 1/2 ltr little bug keeper thing and sat it on my kitchen table and there they were loads of pond fleas but couldnt see any daphnia

BUT

I went to my pond that is a natural pond so nothing added or taken away and is totally 100% rainwater and there was loads of daphnia in there...

so.......... would that confirm that
1. the water butt water daphnia just hadnt had time to reproduce
2. as the pond is all rainwater and like the water butt not under a roof etc that the rain water is not polluted?

cheers....

dw1305 · Jul 5, 2012

Hi all,

loads of pond fleas

Not familiar with "pond fleas" as a term, but Daphnia and "water fleas" are the same thing, the Daphnia you buy in the LFS tend to be a bigger and pinker strain, but they are the same things.

You can "gut load" the Daphnia in the same way you would BBS with Spirulina powder, gram flour, paprika etc. If you feed them with powdered Astaxanthin "red crumb" (from TA aquaculture) or paprika, you can get very pink Daphnia. I used to do this when I kept the Daphnia in tanks, but now I just have the water butts, as I get a constant supply of "trickle fed" Daphnia with water changes even in the winter. The Daphnia from the butts are very pale, probably as there isn't any algae in the dark.

I always get Cyclops and seed-shrimps in the water butts as well, they are all just different Crustaceans and good food.

cheers Darrel

ccole · Jul 5, 2012

thanks so much for your responce-i thought for a moment i imagined posting! lol. good to know that things are looking good! i did creep out a bit when i found leeches in the pond!
thanks again for the help- rain water for my plecs here it comes!

getting the right mix-h2o chemisty help :)

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