My plecos died and I don't know why, help !

Christine

Member
Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Hello, and sorry for the long message, hope it can help identifying what may cause the death of my fish. I have done ALL the mistakes a beginner can do. I hate losing animals of any kind, so I spent countless hours on the web researching. I have learned a lot about my mistakes but am completely in the blur of why I suddenly lose a lot of fish when it seemed to be all right. I have lost 2 leopard sailfin plecos within the last 2 weeks, along with 1 panda cory, 3 lambchop rasboras and 2 guppies.

Here the full story.

Roughly 11 weeks ago I get my small 20L tank out (a jebo). Add 3 mollies, 3 phatom tetras, 5 neons. Didn’t test water (guy in LFS 1 said it was not necessary (!!!), just to change water regularly, which I did, daily 25%.
After 2 weeks I lose 2 mollies and am really upset. Partner feels sorry, goes to LFS 1 and returns with a pleco (gibbiceps) and what they told him was a pearl gourami and which looks much more like a dwarf kissing gourami. I didn’t know these fish, searched the web a lot and discovered how big they can grow ! But loved the pleco straight away and there was no way I was going to give it back. So, in emergency I buy the biggest tank I could afford, a AquaOne 620T,. 130L. Not ideal but I’m already saving for a 450L so that pleco has space. I used as much of the media I could from the small tank (gravel, ceramic noodles, sponge, decoration) and added it to the big tank, along with all the new stuff. I let it run fishless for 6 days (keeping up with water changes in small tank).

Then I added the pleco and gourami. Got a API kit and started testing water every second day. Initially Ammonia 0.5, nitrites 5, nitrates 0, ph 7. After 3 days ammonia went down to 0.25, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, ph 7.2. I added the 5 neons. Params the same for the next 4 days, so I add the 3 phantom tetras. Keep changing water daily, 25%. A few days later params unchanged, tank looked empty, so we get 5 lambchop rasboras. Same again, + 3 serpae tetras. And finally 3 guppies and 3 panda corys.

For 3 weeks things seemed to be all right, water tested every second day and changed 25% daily. Ammonia was remaining at 0.25 (sometimes less, not quite the yellow for 0 but not as green as the 0.25).

And then it started to turn ugly. Every day another casualty. In order: rasbora, rasbora, guppy, guppy, rasbora, pleco. The pleco had a really swollen belly and the last day he seemed to struggle with balance, pivoting around wherever he attached with his mouth. I noticed also, over his last week that he stopped pooping. I constantly tried to feed him blanched veggies (zucchini, lettuce, cucumber, beans, shelled peas) but he was only interested in the fish food or wafers. I believe he died of constipation and bloating.

I cried like a kid when pleco died. A couple of days later my partner gets another one (joselimaianus). He chose that one at the LFS 1 because it was the most active. We open the bag, sit it on top of tank water, drip tank water into it for 20 minutes and let him go in the tank. Hiding initially for a couple of days, then getting out but certainly not as active as he was at LFS 1. A week after we got him I find him dead in the morning, along with the smallest cory (which didn’t look very healthy when we got him). I have not seen him eating any food (wafers, veggies or fish food) AT ALL, and no poop. Unlike pleco 1, his belly was not big (not sunken either) but I noticed that he had blood coming from his anus and a slight protrusion (prolapse).

I learned that fish food is not best for plecos, it has too much protein, which in turn gets them constipated. I tried wafers and veggies, but only pleco 1 ate the wafers.

I am at a loss to what has caused all these losses  Ammonia is still slightly under 0.25, ph has dropped to 6.6 (over a period of 3 weeks). Increasing daily water changes to 30% since. Double checked with another LFS (there is a knowledgeable guy there) and params are not perfect, but not dramatically bad either.

I have noticed yellow dots that formed on the silicone and am investigating if this could be the cause. See other post about this :http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140255#post140255

I’m left with the gourami, 3 serpaes, 3 phantom and 5 neon tetras, 2 rasboras, 2 panda corys. Not going to add any fish for a while now. No more death sice pleco 2 died.

Can anyone help me?

Photos of the plecos on flickr (please click the title to get to the page)

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/98952278@N02/9298557168/"]Pleco1_1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/98952278@N02/9295780495/"]Pleco1_3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/98952278@N02/9295776319/"]Pleco1_4 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/98952278@N02/9295774197/"]Pleco2_7 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/98952278@N02/9298549344/"]Pleco2_9 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]
 

Lornek8

Member
Apr 21, 2009
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Hawaii
Could be worms. Can't remember the name off hand but the farmed sailfins from Australia seem to have it a lot. Don't know the origin of your fish but the condition of the second one sounds like it could be a possibility. It's difficult to diagnose symptoms of already deseased plecs as the stomachs often bloat following death. If the bloating wasn't evident before death then it could simply be a result of passing.

What's your setup like? Sounds like quite a bit of fish for a new aquarium. Without nitrates showing up in the tests, chances are the filter isn't fully cycled. This could contribute to the demise of the fish.

EDIT: Cammallus worms.
 
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Breamlegend

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Apr 22, 2009
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Central Coast NSW Australia
You had too many fish in an uncycled tank. I would add a canister to the 620. I've never found the filters to be good on that model as the design is flawed. Try using prime when you water change. You want zero ammonia and nitrite and nitrate below 20.
Water changing daily would prolong the cycle. Try a fishless cycle next time by using ammonia. Running a tank empty for 6 days does nothing imo. Apple snails are good to cycle tanks as they can tolerate very poor water conditions.
 
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Christine

Member
Jul 14, 2013
29
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New Zealand
Hi Breamlegend, and thanks for your reply to the other thread too.

Look, I've learned the lesson the hard way! I wish I had known everything I discovered in the meantime right from the start, but like many beginners I guess, I knew very little, trusted the LFS a bit too much (their main purpose is to sell) and one wants fish in the aquarium. As said, I intend to get a bigger tank at the end of the year and this time I will do the fish-less cycle properly (when I got the second tank I didn't have too much choice, it was an emergency buy and I did as good as I could with what I had - still had a lot to learn by then).

About that second tank precisely .... well, just last night I read a very interesting article on this site about the importance of height and the role in water surface for oxygen exchange, which is much smaller for a "high" tank. I noticed that my first pleco went to the surface once in a while (something like once in a couple of hours), that's when I added an airstone; was one enough? I don't know. In the meantime I have added another and lowered the level of water so that the outlet creates even more turbulances, with the hope it might help.

For the water changes, yes I do use Prime since the beginning, also stress zyme. What I still struggle to understand, and please help me, is why, although I change 30% daily (in order to not having the ammonia level going higher), this ammonia remains at 0.25 (a little below, but still not zero). Is it just the amount of fish or something else?

After 3 weeks of adding fish to the tank, nitrites went up to 5 for a couple of days, which is certainly due to the addition of new fish. In the meantime it's 0 and same for nitrates. Do you think I should change water less regularly, every second days to start with for example?

The other big mystery is why the fish were seemingly well for 3 weeks, then suddenly within just a very few days I lose quite a few of them and since then none? Does that just mean that the neons, phantom/serape tetras, gourami and panda cory are more resilient ? Honestly, I'm a bit lost and don't know what to do next.

Christine
 

Lornek8

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Apr 21, 2009
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The ammonia in the tank can be due to ammonium from the tap water or the fish. Prime detoxifies ammonia but it will still show on tests. Ammonium can be found in tap water and can also show on water tests. The concerning thing is the lack of nitrates. This clearly shows that the filters is not cycled. What filter are you using?

The gulping can be fairly common in sailfins, even with relatively good aeration in the tank.

The deaths at the three week mark could simply be due to the ammonia building up to a sufficient level to become toxic. Once the deaths occured it reduced the bio load to a less toxic level.
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Lornek8, at some point I was wondering about the tap water, so tested it with the API kit as well. PH=7, NH3, NO2- and NO3- were all at zero.

Something is not going right with the cycle, that's for sure. The PH went initially up then suddenly down. THe guy from LFS 2 tested KH and it was low (sorry, don't know much about that yet, on the list of things to research over the next days). On Monday he "prescribed" Nutrafin KH Booster and asked me to come back with another water sample on Friday.

As for the ammonia, 0.25 from 11/06 until 22/06, then it went up to 0.5 and 1.0 on 29/06. On 01/07 it's at 0.5 again, that's when I added the 3 guppies and 3 pandas and surprisingly ammonia remained at 0.5 for a week, then down to 0.25 (and as said, most of the time it is not yellow for zero, but not quite the green for 0.25).

Nitrites at 5 from 11/06 to 14/06 then 0.5 for 2 days, and since then 0

Nitrates ALWAYS been at zero. I have 3 live plants in the tank, does that play a role ? I remember from biology courses that plants absorb nitrates that's why I thought it wouldn't harm to add them.

The last 2 deaths were on the 14/07, none since (fingers crossed very hard). The odd thing is that from the first death on 06/07 and until the last, even until today, ammonia remained at 0.25 !?!?!!!

In summary, ammonia still there, some nitrites 5 weeks ago, never any nitrates, so clearly, it hasn't cycled. Is there anything I can do to get it to cycle properly? Right now I do daily water changes of 30% to avoid ammonia to go up and damage the existing fish but that slows the process from what I understand. Not changing for 2-3 days and take the risk of ammonia going up? For info, I also feed a minimum to lessen the impact of food decomposition on the bioload.

I have actually an excel log file with dates, ph, NH3, NO2-, NO3-, amount of water change, what has been added, what died. COuld that help?
 
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Lornek8

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Apr 21, 2009
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There was a lot that has gone on in a short amount of time. Basically an uncycled tank as others have said with many additions before the tank got settled. There could have also been a disease introduced with the new fish somewhere along the way. My 're commendation is as you've come to as well, nothing new until the tank stabilizes. The constant water changing probably isn't helping much in terms of stability. Cut back on feeding a bit as well.

Plants help with nitrates but it would probably take more than three to completely rid the tank of nitrates unless you were running higher light levels and possibly co2 to allow the plants to utilize all the nitrates.
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Sorry for not answering the question about filter media straight away (I'm French and not familiar with all the words, so had to quickly research them).

Mechanical and chemical filtration:
The Aqua One has an in-built filter (strainer, intake pipe, powerhead with impeller, spray bar. Under the spray bar is a carbon cartridge, under which is a black filter sponge, under which are ceramic noodles. That's on the left hand side of the upper part. There is a second cartridge/sponge/noodle department and it looks like the overflow from the first one, where the spray bar is, goes in that one. THen the water outlets, 2 of them, one vertical, one diagonal - this one produces quite a bit of movement).

Biological filtration:
If I get it right, that's where the "good" bacteria can built up, so it would be the black sponge, the ceramic noodles, the gravel and on the ornaments ??

Hope that answers :) Not sure which part you want to know
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
OK, will stop doing the daily changes for now. Will start with every 2 days, see how the params go, then if ok, every 3 days, and so on. No more fish added for now.

For feeding, I was feeding a small pinch of tropical fish food in the morning (gulped within a minute) and 2 pellets for the 2 corys. Same regime in the evening. Best to cut down to one/day?
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
just lost another rasbora. 3 hours ago at the evening roll-call he was darting around with his buddy, doing what they have always done. Analysed closely, no spots, no fungus, no red gills, not bloated, eyes clear, no wound ... nothing that looks abnormal apart from the fact that he is dead :-(
 

zeebo

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Jun 11, 2010
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ct ,usa
hi Christine, sorry you and your fish are going through all this. I know it can be frustrating, and many people have gotten caught up in buying a tank, fish and then come to realize the tank must cycle before it is safe for fish.

So all the advice already given to you should help, and one more thing I would do since you are cycling with fish already in the tank is add more Prime. You can add a capful to the tank water, the amonia will bond with it to help make it non-toxic ,yet you will still have the amonia needed to cycle the tank. Your tests will still read amonia and nitrItes, but it won't be as toxic. I would add a capful of Prime every other day, no wc's yet and every week or 2x a week, test for nitrAtes. When your tank starts showing nitrates, the amonia and nitrites should begin to fall . When you get 0 for both , and something showing for nitrates, you are cycled.

So, Prime should help with losses during this time. We are glad you found us to get this squared away.

Yes, the ceramic pegs or whatever you put in the bag and sponge in the filter will develop good bacteria and when enough good bacteria is living in there, that bacteria will eat the amonia and nitrites right away and keep everything leveled out/cycled. Please note how important this biomedia is because once you have built up enough, you don't want to loose it. That means using tank water (which you have added Prime to at every water change) NOT tap water which the chlorine will kill all that good bacteria and you will loose your cycle. Any filter cleaning should be done with tank water in a bowl, or bucket to swish things around.... but you do not have to think about that yet , it goes for after the cycle is complete.

Once your cycle is complete, give your tank some time to settle in with the fish remaining. Wait a while before adding new fish , and only a few at a time so the cycle can catch up with the new guys. If they are larger fish, only one at a time, wait a week or 2 until the cycle has caught up again.

While cycling, try to feed less . This will help keep the amonia down too. I am not sure if you peaked in your nitrItes yet, so just hang in there, keep adding more Prime and keep us informed. Good luck , Georgie
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Hi Georgie and thanks for the advice. Yes, I did pretty much every mistake a beginner will make. I learned about the nitrogen cycle after having got the tank and fish.

I also see what my latest mistake was: changing water too often. I didn't mean bad with that, from all the stuff I did read that water change lowers ammonia, so I thought this would help, but realise now that one would only do this ONCE the tank is cycled. Whilst it is still cycling, removing 30% daily was actually counterproductive and stopped the "good bacteria" to develop, thus extending the duration of the process as Breamlegend said. Is that correct?

To answer the question about nitrites, well, that's one of the oddities: for a few days it went up to 5, then down to 0 where it has stayed since. Never any nitrates. I guess that it had actually started the process at that time, but that coincided with me starting to change water daily, so I stuffed it all up.

For info, I always used Prime at each wc, and yes, I knew about the sponge being rinsed in tank water ... (perhaps the only thing I didn't do wrong in the end!)

I got ammo lock this morning, recommended by LFS. Should I stop it and go back to Prime instead, or do they both do the same ?

And last but most important question: when do I actually do the next water change?

Thanks to everyone for your help, it is greatly appreciated.
 

zeebo

Member
Jun 11, 2010
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right, if Bream is correct, if you know someone with a healthy tank , you can ask for some of their filter biomedia to speed things up. I personally would not ask from a LFS, not always healthy tanks there.

As for ammo lock, I have no idea about this product or what it does. I only know about Prime.

I have used Prime when I lost my cycle due to meds (some meds are safe for filter bacteria and some meds will kill it ) and the fish go through it by using Prime daily and no wc's. Good luck and keep us updated.
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
will use prime. Don't really know anyone with a fish tank but the guy at the second LFS (who was the most knowledgeable of all the locals) has a tropical tank at home and I will ask him this arvo. Or if he knows of another customer who could help.

Feeling that I'm slowly getting on the right track with all your advice and that gives hope for my remaining fishies (who are not happy chappies since yesterday, because I cut down on the food, only once a day for the time being ... so when I approach the tank, they swim up and nothing is coming :) Still missing my first pleco a lot, at feeding time I was used to put a wafer on the finger tip and he came up to get it. Fell in love with him .... One day, when the tank is properly cycled, I will get another one .... not now, the other lesson I learned is "PATIENCE FOR GOODNESS SAKE!".
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
The lab confirmed, there is staphylococcus and klebsiella in that yellow stuff on the silicon. No idea of what it does to fish, from distant memory I remember that staph infections can spread to internal organs, especially liver and digestive system. That's probably, along with the tank not being cycled properly, what caused the demise of the plecos, rasboras and guppies.

I'm a bit stuck with a dilemma: treating the tank now with an antibiotics and the little good bacterias I would have will be gone too, so, since the remaining fish seem to cope with the treatment, I use Pimafix and Melafix daily (efficiency not proven, I guess it cannot harm), Prime daily and Stress Zyme. Once a week KH Booster (KH low and the PH level is dropping quite low too, 6.0 today, which at that level is not good either for the cycling).

I went to the place where they have a huge 5000 litres tank (the local museum !!!) with a sump, unfortunately their system doesn't use ceramic noodles (it's a really weird machine, like two huge balls on top of each other, height of over 1.5 m), and the lady who looks after the system cannot "just take some out of it". She gave me water for when I to a wc and wool ... which is better than nothing. She will also give me some of her noodles from her home tank.

That's for the latest news. The good news is that I haven't lost any fish for a few days now.

On a side track, was not far from losing the whole tank yesterday evening, we had a 6.5 earthquake in the area and I was standing next to the tank with my son when it started. The water was swaying badly inside and the tank was moving. That was scary ! Have done a temp securing until I go to town to get something more solid.
 

Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Yes, I have seen that at the LFS. Will get some tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.

An update on the staph/klebsiella. So that's confirmed. Talked to a good vet yesterday and she said that these bacteria are not uncommon, even in a fish tank. A possible treatment against staph is Erythromycin which kills Gram Positive bacteria (Staph, but also the BB of the tank), not Klebsiella which is gram negative so another product would be needed for that.

With her we came to wonder if it was actually wise to treat. I haven't lost any more fish for 9 days now (touching wood) and it could have been staph/klebsiella that killed them, but more than likely the water quality which was out of whack with my daily water changes and the tank that had not cycled.

For now I have stopped changing water daily (every 5 days instead), treat with Prime, Melafix and Pimafix daily. Got some media from two different sources ... just going to wait and see. PH 6.8, ammonia 0.5, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, KH 1 for the last 6 days.
 

dw1305

Global Moderators
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May 5, 2009
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Hi all,
Christine, the best thing you can do for your tank and fish is to stop adding anything to the tank, and stop testing the water with kits, they honestly don't work. I'm typing this in a lab. with both fish tanks and about £100K of analytical kit, and I still couldn't tell you reliably and repeatably what the water parameters of the tanks are.

Plants are always a good thing in tanks, they are probably the single factor that has the most effect on water quality. I like to have a few floating plants (not sure what you can get in NZ as the law is pretty tight on "exotic" plants).

Other than that you just need to remember that both biological filtration and fish health is very dependent upon having enough oxygen.

Personally I like a lot of flow (this increases oxygenation in the water by creating a larger gas exchange surface as the surface water is constantly replaced), I don't like floss etc in the filter as it is prone to clogging, and I like to change about 10% of the water every day.

cheers Darrel
 
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Christine

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Jul 14, 2013
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New Zealand
Just an update

My fish probably died because the tank wasn't cycled and I didn't help by changing water daily in high proportions. Other things have probably contributed (staph and klebsiella, extremely low KH, PH going up and down).

Doing wc every 5 days now, using prime daily, have added used media provided by kind people, still ammonia a bit over 0.5 (not quite the 1.0 green), no nitrites, no nitrates. From various forums I have discovered that one might not necessarly "see" nitrites, but there should be nitrates if tank cycled, so definitively not the case yet. Will just keep going and see how it works.

Remaining fish all happy so far. Still missing my pleco, so going to the LFS daily to look at theirs (the owner has a huge amount of tanks with fish not for sale, who have been returned, and he has quite a few large plecs).