Are tankbreds easier to breed than wildcaughts?

Raul-7

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Someone wants to sell me L46 tankbred and he justifies a price that is close to wildcaught price by saying they're easier to breed, less finicky and mature faster.

Note, I've bred wildcaughts before selling them off when I lost interest and they stopped breeding. I just want to know whether or not tankbred would be a better investment this time around in terms of how readily they breed.
 
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leisure_man

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I think is just an excuse for selling tankbred fish. Most breeder don't care about the sex ratio of the spawn and subsequent in a small spawn like L46, you could end up getting all of the same sex. I had someone trying to buy one of my L262 females since I have an abundant of them in my breeding group. I asked if his L262 were WC or tank raised. He indicated all 7 or 8 of his L262 are tankbred and they all ended up being males after raising them up from juveniles for a few years. If they were WC fish, this would never happened.

Unless the breeder has a history of producing even sex progeny and understand the environment factors that skew the sex ratio, there is a good chance that you will end up with all same sex. In that case, it would be hard as hell to breed with one sex, not easier as they claim. As for maturity of the fish, WC fish are typically more mature as it would take them longer in the wild to reach the same size. Most breeder sell the tankbred ones at a much smaller size as well so I don't see how one can justify the same price for a much small fish.
 

bigbird

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I do not think that the fish also know if the are wild or tank bred. They all have the instinct to breed, irrespective what animal in the world, they all want to breed . Males look for a suitable female by providing a safe cave , enough oxy flow, tail swinging and tries to lure the female like that and the female looks for a strong, good coloured and robust caring male. Then nature does the rest. That is my theory, so good luck and also fish on the second tier or third etc follow that principal, safety is number one, cheers jk :thumbup:
 

Bigjohnnofish

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when peppermint b/n first turned up in australia they were 90 bucks for 2.5cm and they werent easy to breed once grown to a mature size... many people never bred them... but generation after generation after generation they became easier to breed... to current day when its relatively easy to breed peppermint b/n....

i think after many generations tank bred fish become easier to breed....

heard people saying wildcaughts are finicky and easily spooked and harder to breed throughtout the fish hobby in general... but they do present better genetics as opposed to some tank stuff being inbred along the lines.... well in theory anyway... im sure brother/sister have bred together in the wild before
 

Raul-7

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But wouldn't wild caughts be more skittish, require longer to acclimate, require longer to breed and need triggers to spawn?

I'll experiment, I'll buy a WC group and F1 group to see which is more successful. Same water conditions and setup.
 

Brengun

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I don't think it makes much difference but individual fish can be different in terms of being territorial in wild caught and don't forget in transit from wc to tanks they may have copped an ammonia spike in the water.
 

Lornek8

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With all fish generally wild-caught are more difficult to breed than tank-born and raised individuals. You just have to look at fish like discus and anglefish to see this. Wild heckle discus and altum angels can still be somewhat difficult to breed especially when compared to the man-made strains. Same goes for plecs for all the reasons previously mentioned. Part of the difficulty is identifying the triggers required to get them to spawn and once these are identified, a big part of the equation is solved. For the most part, Zebras aren't one of the more difficult plecs to spawn, this is supported by how quickly they were captive bred after the initial importation and introduction to the hobby.

As far as tank bred batches being sexually skewed, this could certainly be a possibility. I've also heard of many claims that wild-caught fish importation can be similarly skewed. I've heard rumors of collectors only sending a particular sex to keep them from breeding in captivity and thus ensuring the market for wild-caught fish and also, probabaly more plausable, that males cave so are easier to locate and catch.
 

leisure_man

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Since the question is about L46 and not discus or altum angels, I don't see the WC being more difficult than tank raised at all. I have altum angels that I am breeding and yes they are more difficult in terms of fish need to reach 1.5 to 2 years minimum age before even mature enough to start breeding. Once the proper parameters are given, they breed like other angelfish.

Back to the L46, I don't believe the WC import population is sexually skewed. Typically, WC L46 has 40/60 ratio (female/male). The problem comes in when sorting by size. With males being larger and females typically smaller, the larger size would have more males and the smaller size would be predominantly females. Since importer/wholesaler get them according to size (# of fish with certain size per box), those who get the larger size will have more males while others with smaller size will have more females. Hence creating a localized effect of skewed sex ratio.

As for collectors only ship L46 with one sex, this is a total fairy tale. They ship everything they collect, big or small. Both L46 male and female caves readily when there are an abundant of caves and hiding places for them, so catching mainly males due to the fact that only males caves is definitely not the case.
 

Lornek8

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Since the question is about L46 and not discus or altum angels, I don't see the WC being more difficult than tank raised at all. I have altum angels that I am breeding and yes they are more difficult in terms of fish need to reach 1.5 to 2 years minimum age before even mature enough to start breeding. Once the proper parameters are given, they breed like other angelfish.
So the proper parameters for altums are simply age? So you could breed them in a tap-water community tank? That was a generalized statement I was making and still I feel holds true. I've yet to come across a fish that hasn't become easier to keep and breed after being captive bred & raised. The discus/angelfish example was just to illustrate how these fish were thought so demanding just to keep let alone breed when they were first being imported, now I've had man-made strains of both angelfish & discus breed for me in community tanks being fed nothing more than flake and commercial pellet without an attempt even being made to get them to breed. The fact that wild-caught Zebras are easily bred doesn't mean captive bred ones can't be even easier.
 
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leisure_man

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I didn't say the proper parameters for altums are simply age. It is just one of the requirements. Proper parameters for breeding altum doesn't mean tap-water. What is tap water anyway? Fish that can breed in your tap water doesn't mean they will breed in others' tap water. Anyone with a good general knowledge on breeding fish knows that there are a multitude of parameters essential to trigger breeding. Parameters can include other factors that are not directly related to the water quality. Understanding those specific parameters are the key to breeding 'so-call' difficult species. Generalization typically results in 'hit-or-miss' result (mostly misses). That is no different with those keeping L46. I had even heard breeder took over 8 years before the L46 would start breeding which is clearly a 'hit-or-miss' case. Would tank-raised L46 shorten that breeder's time to achieve success? I don't think so.
Obviously, there are fish that tank-raised would be easier to breed than WC. However, I don't think L46 would classify under that group. There are other fish like Apistogramma diplotaenia, Betta macrostoma to name a few that I would not consider TR ones easier to breed than WC. And yes, I have bred those two species as well. To generalize all tank-raised fish are easier to breed than WC is like assuming all tap-water is the same.
Almost forgot, case can also be made that WC ones are easier to breed than tank-raised. This is the case of Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Wouri', I have yet to know any breeder capable of breeding this species pass the 3rd generation. WC ones breed readily given the proper parameters, after two generations of captive breeding, they simply stop breeding. I have encountered the same issue first hand.
 
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Lornek8

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I didn't say the proper parameters for altums are simply age. It is just one of the requirements. Proper parameters for breeding altum doesn't mean tap-water. What is tap water anyway? Fish that can breed in your tap water doesn't mean they will breed in others' tap water. Anyone with a good general knowledge on breeding fish knows that there are a multitude of parameters essential to trigger breeding. Parameters can include other factors that are not directly related to the water quality. Understanding those specific parameters are the key to breeding 'so-call' difficult species. Generalization typically results in 'hit-or-miss' result (mostly misses). That is no different with those keeping L46. I had even heard breeder took over 8 years before the L46 would start breeding which is clearly a 'hit-or-miss' case. Would tank-raised L46 shorten that breeder's time to achieve success? I don't think so.
Like I said in my earlier post "Part of the difficulty is identifying the triggers required to get them to spawn and once these are identified, a big part of the equation is solved." So, yes, I am aware that it takes proper parameters to get fish to spawn. My point was that with wild fish, like altums (if actually wild-caught), the parameters required tend to be more exact than they are for tank-bred/raised fish like a dollar-store angelfish. By tap-water what I meant was water out of the tap with some water conditioner, no buffering, no RO, no demin. I've experienced spawings of angelfish and even discus in multiple tap-water conditions in this state (my most recent one here was ph over 8 and around 300ppm TDS and the place before had a higher TDS) and others in the mainland US with no attempt to get them to spawn. One might consider that to be an achievement but the simple truth is I did nothing to get them to breed for me, they simply did it on their own. In these same "tap-water" conditions i've had to play with the water conditions just to keep some wild-caught fish happy and alive.

Obviously, there are fish that tank-raised would be easier to breed than WC. However, I don't think L46 would classify under that group. There are other fish like Apistogramma diplotaenia, Betta macrostoma to name a few that I would not consider TR ones easier to breed than WC. And yes, I have bred those two species as well. To generalize all tank-raised fish are easier to breed than WC is like assuming all tap-water is the same.
Almost forgot, case can also be made that WC ones are easier to breed than tank-raised. This is the case of Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Wouri', I have yet to know any breeder capable of breeding this species pass the 3rd generation. WC ones breed readily given the proper parameters, after two generations of captive breeding, they simply stop breeding. I have encountered the same issue first hand.
Thanks for englightening me. I haven't kept those fish nor researched them so were unaware of those facts. It's kinda a mute point though as Zebras have already been multi-generationally tank bred and haven't shown these types of breeding diffculties. So, following along with what is seen in the majority of other tank-bred fish in the aquarium hobby I can't see Zebras becoming more difficult to breed and if anything should be easier. As you can probably tell, I don't currently have a breeding group of Zebras though I did have spawns in the early/mid-90's.

Your previous post regarding maturity is a definite issue though. Whilst wild-caught fish may or may not be easier to breed than captive bred, they in all likely hood, would be more mature than captve bred individuals and might be quicker to get a spawn out of. So, from a time/cost standpoint it may be worthwhile going after wild-caught individuals.
 

Raul-7

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Just to add some information. A well-respected breeder who breeds the true L236; said the fry he sold bred after being only 18 months. Far from the normal for WC Hypancistrus who reach maturity within 3 years.